CSW2.5 Vs. DD1, from a slightly different perspective
Andrew Nagy
Member
I think I'm in the minority in the sim community in that my primary interest isn't sim racing (although I will probably try it at some point) - it's driver training and practice between live track events and races. So, my number one goal in the rig I'm putting together (my first foray into this field) is maximizing realism, feedback, and sense of immersion. My instructor at a race school I recently attended at Sonoma International Raceway, Nico Rondet, recommends the CSW 2.5, so I figured it it's good enough for Nico, it must be a great wheel base. But it went on backorder, so I started thinking about going with the DD1, which was available for immediate delivery, instead. I've watch multiple Youtube vidoes on the two bases, included some head-to-head comparisons, and the consensus is as I'd expected - they're both great bases, but the DD1 offers noticeable, if not overwhelming, additional feedback and road feel. The biggest difference noted between the two bases is the level of force feedback, which honestly isn't that big of a factor for me, as the cars I drive in real life don't have that much counter-rotaional force through the wheel.
But all this is from the perspective of iRacing enthusiasts. So, for any people out there with similar goals as mine, do you think the extra few hundred dollars for the DD1 is worth it? Money isn't really a consideration, but at the same time, I don't like wasting it. I would be fine with starting with the CSW, and upgrading later (as it seems like the state of the art in DD wheel bases is improving rapidly), but is there much of a market for used sim equipment? I see there are very few CSW's for sale in the marketplace. I know this is an impossible question to answer definitively, but wihtout actually being able to try both wheel bases out, all I have to go on is recommendations. Thanks in advance.
Comments
Hi Andrew,
I can offer my perspective as a sim racer who has extensively tested both bases, but bear in mind I am also a Fanatec employee.
Before the Podium Series launched, the ClubSport Wheel Base V2.5 was Fanatec's flagship base, and it remains an excellent performer, and the best belt-driven base on the market. But while the dual belt system is very smooth, it can't replicate the directness of a signal coming straight through the motor shaft, as you get with the DD1. And the DD1 is not only direct drive, but it is almost three times as powerful. This power isn't just about raw strength, it is about dynamic range, and it is this combination of directness and performance headroom that gives you the extra 'road feel' you mentioned.
The V2.5 might provide enough torque for what you need. It depends on the cars you want to simulate. GT3 cars, for example, have power steering, and the torque can be quite light in some cases, within the range of the V2.5. But older cars, and many categories of open-wheelers have no power steering, and peak torque values can go even beyond the DD2's range in some cases. However, it's very tiring to run sim laps with super high steering torque, even if it is realistic for that particular car, and it might not be that beneficial for training, particularly when you're missing the high G-forces to go with it. One could argue that really high steering torque combined with no G-force is a confusing mismatch of sensations.
In the end, it's nice to know that you have the performance headroom to experiment with, if you pick the DD1.
The other advantage of the Podium wheel bases is the extra filters in the Tuning Menu that are not available on the belt-driven bases. The Natural Damper of the DD1 is similar to the Drift Mode of the V2.5, but there are also Friction, Inertia, and Interpolation filters on the DD1 that are not available on the V2.5. The combination of these filters gives you more flexibility in terms of fine-tuning the feel that you want from the base.
There is also a durability consideration. If this simulator is going to see a lot of 'traffic', then the more robust and simpler mechanical design of the DD1 might give you more peace of mind. The V2.5 is very solidly built, but ultimately it does have more moving parts due to the belt system.
The V2.5 is absolutely a great place to start. It will always be a great base, and it will give you the realism and immersion you're looking for (assuming everything else is also set up well). The DD1 will just give you more of everything, and I think the difference in price is a fair representation of that.
[Fanatec Community Manager]
Wow, what a fantastic answer - thanks very much. My track car is a track-prepped Porsche 968, which of course has power steering. The car I will most likely be racing (if the arrive-and-drive series at Sonoma comes to fruition after Covid) is a KTM X-Bow Comp R, a mid-engined car which weighs about 1900 pounds. It doesn't have power steering, but it's so light that it doesn't need it. I never detected much resistive torque through the wheel, either during lapping, or during the exercises where we were putting the cars into a spin, and then catching them (small-scale drifting, in other words). So, as I said, I won't need a lot of force feedback to simulate the feel of the actual cars I drive on the track, but the realism of a direct drive wheel is appealing to me, as is, as you point out, its simplicity and inherent reliability. Also, as strange as this may sound for a road racing enthusiast, I would like to learn how to drift, because of the car control it teaches. Do you feel that the DD1 would be a better base for drifting practice?
If I go with the DD1, what wheel and hub would you recommend? I'm a little confused as what is different between the Podium and the Universal hub. An R300 seems to make sense, but I would prefer a slighly larger diameter wheel. Would it be possible to order an R300 with a Podium hub (if you feel that would work best with a DD1), but with the larger, 330 mm Podium rim? Thanks again for your help.
All our wheel bases (the CSL Elites included) have enough torque and wheel speed to give you the right kind of coutersteer response to simulate drifting, so they are all suitable for drifting practice to some extent. In fact they all have the potential to be 'too fast' when running at high strength settings, which is why the Drift Mode (belt) and Natural Damper (DD) exist, to slow the rotation down to the appropriate speed for comfortable catching of slides. The difference between the two is more about the instantaneous response, which doesn't play a big role once the steering wheel is up to speed and free-spinning during the initial phase of a drift, but makes a difference during direction changes and the feeling of changes in grip level / slip angle. You can effectively adjust the DD1's strength and filters to make it perform almost identically to a V2.5, but you can't make a V2.5 perform like a DD1.
One potential advantage of the DD1 for drifting is that is has a larger steering lock. The V2.5 is mechanically limited to 900 degrees. The Podium bases have the potential to have infinite rotation (there is no mechanical stop), but they are firmware-limited to 2520 degrees. The X-Bow has a very fast rack so probably within the 900 degree range, but many road cars (and dedicated drift cars) go to 1080 degrees and beyond.
Wheel diameter is important, as it influences the amount of effort you need to apply to resist the strength of the steering torque. It also affects the weight distribution and rotational inertia of the wheel, which influences the way the FFB is delivered. If you want to specifically replicate the X-Bow, then it would be best to use a wheel of exactly the same diameter, which I believe is 290 mm. We don't offer a wheel exactly of this size; the R300 is pretty close, but it's not completely round, so maybe the R330 is the better bet as a multi-purpose wheel. It will probably end up being useful to have more than one wheel size. Of course the advantage of the Podium or Universal Hub over the BMW is that you could use a third-party 290 mm wheel if you can find a suitable design. You might even be able to add a real X-Bow wheel to it (modifications probably required).
The differences between the two Hubs: the Podium Hub is higher spec, in terms of the electronics and materials. But it is also 'barebones' out of the box, and very limited in terms of features. It has no inputs or display, meaning no direct Tuning Menu access (although this can be accessed via the Fanatec software). The only way to give the Podium Hub a display and Tuning Menu access at the moment is the Podium Button Module Endurance (this is typically purchased as part of the 911 GT3 R steering wheel, but it is also suitable for the R300 rim). The Universal Hub is more fully-featured out of the box, with plenty of buttons, shifter paddles, a small display and Tuning Menu access. The idea of the Universal Hub is that it is pre-assembled with lots of features ready to go, and suitable for attaching multiple rim sizes, whereas the Podium Hub is a more high-end, modular component, which is suitable either for using completely on its own (with Fanatec wheel rims or others, or even high-end USB-based steering wheels from third-party manufacturers), or as part of a high-end modular steering wheel combination like the 911 GT3 R. The Universal Hub can also do these things, but it doesn't make that much sense to choose the Universal Hub if you are going to use it in this way, at least not on a PC.
If you don't need lots of buttons, and you don't wish to make Tuning Menu adjustments while you drive, and you simply need a basic hub on which to mount a wheel, then the Podium Hub might be the better choice for PC use. The Universal Hub can also be used in this way, but you are paying extra for features you might not need. That said, on-wheel Tuning Menu access is very useful. Aside from the Podium Hub (and Podium Steering Wheel R300), all our wheels have this feature, including the BMW GT2.
And yes, you can absolutely order a Podium Hub plus an R330 rim. We don't offer these two products together as a 'Steering Wheel', but they can be added to the cart separately. All the wheel rims are listed at the bottom of the Steering Wheels section of the website, under 'Accessories'.
[Fanatec Community Manager]
Dominic,
Thanks once again for the very detailed and informative response. I hope it helps other people who are new to the sim world who may be following this thread.
If the X-Bow's wheel is actually 290 mm (I have messages in to Sonoma International Raceway and to KTM to ask - I thought it was a little larger, but you may well be right), the R300 would be practically perfect for my needs. I don't have immediate plans to make Tuning Menu adjustments while I drive (my interest in competing in an arrive-and-drive series stems largely from my desire to have to not have to mess with a car, although I went through an extremely elaborate sorting of my Porsche 968's suspension, with fantastic results, but I prefer to just drive), so the Podium R300 with its sturdy, bare-bones Podium hub, its basic buttons, and Podium shift module, gives me everything I want today, with the ability to upgrade over time. If I didn't know any better, I would almost think this stuff is actually starting to make sense to me! My final step before placing my order is to confirm with the manufacturer of my cockpit that it can handle 20 nM of torque without flexing - I'm confident it can, as it appears to eb very sturdy - but I want to confirm.
I have to test a DD drive too but ....
I love my CS 2.5 with rFactor 2 and I changed my 1690g Porsche wheel to the 1090g CSL Elite Steering Wheel WRC
from 32cm to 30cm and around 600g less wight.
this is much noticeable and I love this cheaper but very nice CSL Elite WRC wheel on the CS 2.5.
I don't need a big display on the wheel cause I drive only with VR.
VR was a game chager for me, Something new and awsome. But I test Direct Drive soon I think.